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	<title>Comments on: A Controversial Book That Should Not Be Controversial</title>
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	<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/</link>
	<description>Doctrine in the tradition of  Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie and Thomas S. Monson</description>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9988</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brother Redfels,
  You have some good points.  However, I think I did not make my main point clear enough, if at all.
  My main point is that I do not think that these statements by Presidents Kimball and Tanner were ever meant to be applied to rape.  They are being taken out of context.
  When Jesus said it would be better for one who offends a little one to have a milestone placed about his neck, was he advocating we do so?  No.
   What Presidents Kimball and Tanner were attempting to imply is the serious nature of violating moral commandments, not that people should commit suicide.  
   These statements were not given in discussions of rape, but in discussions of immorality.  Their application to issues of rape is a case of misapplying the context, which was meant to impress upon people the seriousness of sexual sin to rape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Redfels,<br />
  You have some good points.  However, I think I did not make my main point clear enough, if at all.<br />
  My main point is that I do not think that these statements by Presidents Kimball and Tanner were ever meant to be applied to rape.  They are being taken out of context.<br />
  When Jesus said it would be better for one who offends a little one to have a milestone placed about his neck, was he advocating we do so?  No.<br />
   What Presidents Kimball and Tanner were attempting to imply is the serious nature of violating moral commandments, not that people should commit suicide.<br />
   These statements were not given in discussions of rape, but in discussions of immorality.  Their application to issues of rape is a case of misapplying the context, which was meant to impress upon people the seriousness of sexual sin to rape.</p>
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		<title>By: John W. Redelfs</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9987</link>
		<dc:creator>John W. Redelfs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9987</guid>
		<description>Since nearly all words have different denotative meanings, and they also have connotative meanings that are largely influenced by the intelligence, experience and biases of the hearer, it is very difficult or even impossible to say or write anything that will be understood by two people in exactly the same way.  Keeping this in mind, Brother Lambert, you may be using a different meaning for the word &quot;virtue&quot; than was intended by the prophets who used this word.  Your ideas about &quot;consent&quot; may also be different.  There may be different levels of consent than you are taking into consideration.  Two women in an identical situation when face with imminent rape might respond differently.  Two women who fail to put up a fight, might do so for different reasons.  One might prefer to die rather than be a rape victim.  And the other might not want to be raped but only slightly so.  Still another might take a &quot;lie back and enjoy it&quot; attitude that is totally inconsistent with the gospel.  In such a situation her failure to put up a fight might actually be consent, or at least some degree or level of consent.  And there is no way for a third party to know the motives and feelings of either the victim or the rapist.  The truth cannot be discerned because it means being able to read minds and know another person&#039;s heart, something that only the Lord can do.  Before we judge the prophets who have made remarks on this topic, we need to be certain about what they meant by what they said.  And we need to be able to know their hearts, especially as regards this issue.  And of course, that is impossible.  Those who love the prophets of God will err in their favor when weighing their words.  Those who do not, but are looking for reasons to dismiss their counsel, will put the most damning interpretation possible upon them.

If God thinks that a woman should have put a struggle, and she did not, then to some degree she gave her consent.  But you are right that a woman&#039;s failure to struggle is no sin if the Lord feels that she did the right thing and was motivated by the right reasons.  And assuming that God approves of her failure to struggle, he virtue is not impacted whatsoever.  But then I imagine that is something the prophets already knew even before you informed them.

How about a woman who consents to rape because one of her children is being held hostage and will certainly be killed or badly injured if she fights her rapist?  Certainly no virtue would be lost in that situation.  Nor do I feel that any prophet would think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since nearly all words have different denotative meanings, and they also have connotative meanings that are largely influenced by the intelligence, experience and biases of the hearer, it is very difficult or even impossible to say or write anything that will be understood by two people in exactly the same way.  Keeping this in mind, Brother Lambert, you may be using a different meaning for the word &#8220;virtue&#8221; than was intended by the prophets who used this word.  Your ideas about &#8220;consent&#8221; may also be different.  There may be different levels of consent than you are taking into consideration.  Two women in an identical situation when face with imminent rape might respond differently.  Two women who fail to put up a fight, might do so for different reasons.  One might prefer to die rather than be a rape victim.  And the other might not want to be raped but only slightly so.  Still another might take a &#8220;lie back and enjoy it&#8221; attitude that is totally inconsistent with the gospel.  In such a situation her failure to put up a fight might actually be consent, or at least some degree or level of consent.  And there is no way for a third party to know the motives and feelings of either the victim or the rapist.  The truth cannot be discerned because it means being able to read minds and know another person&#8217;s heart, something that only the Lord can do.  Before we judge the prophets who have made remarks on this topic, we need to be certain about what they meant by what they said.  And we need to be able to know their hearts, especially as regards this issue.  And of course, that is impossible.  Those who love the prophets of God will err in their favor when weighing their words.  Those who do not, but are looking for reasons to dismiss their counsel, will put the most damning interpretation possible upon them.</p>
<p>If God thinks that a woman should have put a struggle, and she did not, then to some degree she gave her consent.  But you are right that a woman&#8217;s failure to struggle is no sin if the Lord feels that she did the right thing and was motivated by the right reasons.  And assuming that God approves of her failure to struggle, he virtue is not impacted whatsoever.  But then I imagine that is something the prophets already knew even before you informed them.</p>
<p>How about a woman who consents to rape because one of her children is being held hostage and will certainly be killed or badly injured if she fights her rapist?  Certainly no virtue would be lost in that situation.  Nor do I feel that any prophet would think so.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9986</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9986</guid>
		<description>The comment about resisting evil is not given in the context of rape.  The rape context is not what President Kimball meant.  There is a similar quote from N. Eldon Tanner &quot;it is better to die pure than live having compromised your virtue&quot;.  
  The problem with applying these statements to rape is that they do not work.  If the women has not consented, she has not compromised her virtue.  To think otherwise is to assume virginity has some sort of physical power dissociated with spiritual righteousness.  Men will be punished for their own sins not for Adams transgressions.  Women will be punished for their own sins, not for Steven&#039;s transgressions upon them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comment about resisting evil is not given in the context of rape.  The rape context is not what President Kimball meant.  There is a similar quote from N. Eldon Tanner &#8220;it is better to die pure than live having compromised your virtue&#8221;.<br />
  The problem with applying these statements to rape is that they do not work.  If the women has not consented, she has not compromised her virtue.  To think otherwise is to assume virginity has some sort of physical power dissociated with spiritual righteousness.  Men will be punished for their own sins not for Adams transgressions.  Women will be punished for their own sins, not for Steven&#8217;s transgressions upon them.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Crites</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9985</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Crites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9985</guid>
		<description>Janelle/Agnes/etc:

I don&#039;t believe this is what SWK was trying to say. Look at the two comments:
1) There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation.
2) It is better to die in defending one&#039;s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.

Both are true statements, and stand on their own.

The first seems pretty obvious. If you were not a part of the decision, you are not responsible for the decision. If you dissociate in the doctor&#039;s office, and he takes advantage of you sexually while you are &quot;out of it,&quot; then you are not responsible or condemned for it. Period.

The second one seems to be what you have taken umbrage to. In today&#039;s &quot;politically correct&quot; world, it is better to allow the rape than to fight it: &quot;just go along with it&quot; kind of thing. So the Lord needs to forge that line in clear and unmistakable words.

As such, SWK&#039;s second declaration should be seen as instructive, not condemnatory. If the rapist says he will kill you if you fight, then you fight -- because it is better to die defending your virtue than to just give it up. If you struggle, and are yet defeated and the rape continues and you life to tell the tale, then there certainly is no condemnation -- but the fighting is certainly to your advantage.

Having said that, SWK does not say the opposite. He does not say that &quot;if you don&#039;t fight, then you are responsible for the rape.&quot; He does not declare that &quot;if you live through it you are condemned.&quot; So don&#039;t try to read that into his comments.

Rape is a powerfully destructive event in the lives of most women. Fighting the rapist seems to lessen the emotional destructiveness for most women. (There are those whose sexual makeup is such that they don&#039;t care either way, but they are not part of this discussion, on purpose.) If nothing else, fighting the rapist will relieve the victim of some of those feelings of guilt that will come as they progress through the steps of grief in their recovery.

Some might even say that their feelings of guilt come because they DID NOT struggle, and are worried about just what you are saying here -- they might be condemned because they allowed the rape to continue. For them, I&#039;d go back to sentence #1: it if was not voluntary, there is no condemnation.

So the two work together. A loving Heavenly Father is not going to condemn a woman who is raped. Even if she comes to that realization that fighting is futile and just &quot;lays there and lets it happen.&quot; The damnation falls on the rapist, 100%.

I suppose this might be one of those &quot;harsh&quot; comments that SWK might have reworded if he made a revision of the text. I don&#039;t know. But the truth of both statements is still there. There truly are fates worse than death. There truly are things worth fighting to the death for. There truly are struggles worth making, even if it is under threat of physical harm.

I&#039;m sorry that this doctrine is something you are seeing as &quot;the psychological equivalent of rape.&quot; No true servant of Heavenly Father would do such a thing -- because Heavenly Father would not do such a thing.

If you keep that one point in mind, and use it as a rule of thumb, then you might be able to more clearly read comments like the one you quoted and come away with a better understanding of what was intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janelle/Agnes/etc:</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe this is what SWK was trying to say. Look at the two comments:<br />
1) There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation.<br />
2) It is better to die in defending one&#8217;s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.</p>
<p>Both are true statements, and stand on their own.</p>
<p>The first seems pretty obvious. If you were not a part of the decision, you are not responsible for the decision. If you dissociate in the doctor&#8217;s office, and he takes advantage of you sexually while you are &#8220;out of it,&#8221; then you are not responsible or condemned for it. Period.</p>
<p>The second one seems to be what you have taken umbrage to. In today&#8217;s &#8220;politically correct&#8221; world, it is better to allow the rape than to fight it: &#8220;just go along with it&#8221; kind of thing. So the Lord needs to forge that line in clear and unmistakable words.</p>
<p>As such, SWK&#8217;s second declaration should be seen as instructive, not condemnatory. If the rapist says he will kill you if you fight, then you fight &#8212; because it is better to die defending your virtue than to just give it up. If you struggle, and are yet defeated and the rape continues and you life to tell the tale, then there certainly is no condemnation &#8212; but the fighting is certainly to your advantage.</p>
<p>Having said that, SWK does not say the opposite. He does not say that &#8220;if you don&#8217;t fight, then you are responsible for the rape.&#8221; He does not declare that &#8220;if you live through it you are condemned.&#8221; So don&#8217;t try to read that into his comments.</p>
<p>Rape is a powerfully destructive event in the lives of most women. Fighting the rapist seems to lessen the emotional destructiveness for most women. (There are those whose sexual makeup is such that they don&#8217;t care either way, but they are not part of this discussion, on purpose.) If nothing else, fighting the rapist will relieve the victim of some of those feelings of guilt that will come as they progress through the steps of grief in their recovery.</p>
<p>Some might even say that their feelings of guilt come because they DID NOT struggle, and are worried about just what you are saying here &#8212; they might be condemned because they allowed the rape to continue. For them, I&#8217;d go back to sentence #1: it if was not voluntary, there is no condemnation.</p>
<p>So the two work together. A loving Heavenly Father is not going to condemn a woman who is raped. Even if she comes to that realization that fighting is futile and just &#8220;lays there and lets it happen.&#8221; The damnation falls on the rapist, 100%.</p>
<p>I suppose this might be one of those &#8220;harsh&#8221; comments that SWK might have reworded if he made a revision of the text. I don&#8217;t know. But the truth of both statements is still there. There truly are fates worse than death. There truly are things worth fighting to the death for. There truly are struggles worth making, even if it is under threat of physical harm.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry that this doctrine is something you are seeing as &#8220;the psychological equivalent of rape.&#8221; No true servant of Heavenly Father would do such a thing &#8212; because Heavenly Father would not do such a thing.</p>
<p>If you keep that one point in mind, and use it as a rule of thumb, then you might be able to more clearly read comments like the one you quoted and come away with a better understanding of what was intended.</p>
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		<title>By: Janelle</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9981</link>
		<dc:creator>Janelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 04:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9981</guid>
		<description>&quot;Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one&#039;s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.&quot;

It&#039;s well known that a nearly universal emotional reaction to the violation of being raped are unjustified feelings of guilt and shame, and feeling that one is somehow responsible for being attacked.  To reinforce such feelings in a victim by telling them that they are indeed guilty because they didn&#039;t struggle to the death, is the psychological equivalent of raping them all over again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one&#8217;s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s well known that a nearly universal emotional reaction to the violation of being raped are unjustified feelings of guilt and shame, and feeling that one is somehow responsible for being attacked.  To reinforce such feelings in a victim by telling them that they are indeed guilty because they didn&#8217;t struggle to the death, is the psychological equivalent of raping them all over again.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9933</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9933</guid>
		<description>To Agnes,
    You must understand his statement in context, and you are ignoring the context of a broad definition of sin.   As President Kimball said &quot;There is no comdemnatio where there is no voluntary participation in sin&quot;.  He is clearly saying that someone who is a victim of rape is guiltless in the matter.  
   The next passage only offends you because you are stuck in a mortal view.  If you recognize that this life is only a short time than purity is more important.  That said, President Kimball is not recomending suicide but struggle.  There is a big difference, and it is you who have to work out an agreement with his word, not he who needs to alter his word so it fits with your world view.
   President Kimball saw with spiritual discernment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Agnes,<br />
    You must understand his statement in context, and you are ignoring the context of a broad definition of sin.   As President Kimball said &#8220;There is no comdemnatio where there is no voluntary participation in sin&#8221;.  He is clearly saying that someone who is a victim of rape is guiltless in the matter.<br />
   The next passage only offends you because you are stuck in a mortal view.  If you recognize that this life is only a short time than purity is more important.  That said, President Kimball is not recomending suicide but struggle.  There is a big difference, and it is you who have to work out an agreement with his word, not he who needs to alter his word so it fits with your world view.<br />
   President Kimball saw with spiritual discernment.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9932</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9932</guid>
		<description>Gary,
  You give the comments context.  First, we have them not as Edward L. Kimball heard them from his father, which is how they are normally implied to be, but how a neighbor of President Kimball heard them.  
   What this means is they are second hand, and thus may have lost some of their full meaning in the transmission.  Secondly, there is a difference between regretting writing a book and feeling you were maybe &quot;a little too harsh&quot;.  It is the latter that President Kimball mentioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary,<br />
  You give the comments context.  First, we have them not as Edward L. Kimball heard them from his father, which is how they are normally implied to be, but how a neighbor of President Kimball heard them.<br />
   What this means is they are second hand, and thus may have lost some of their full meaning in the transmission.  Secondly, there is a difference between regretting writing a book and feeling you were maybe &#8220;a little too harsh&#8221;.  It is the latter that President Kimball mentioned.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9930</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9930</guid>
		<description>I think I was too harsh in my last comment.  I think Brother Redfels heart is in the right place, and he is trying to promote good, and to lead people to the true doctrines of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ. 
   I am just not sure if picking only a few of the Special Witnesses of Christ is the best way to do this.  The fact that Brother Redfells analyzes a book by Spencer W. Kimball, and has elsewhere made posts that follow indepth specific teachings of Boyd K. Packer and Gordon B. Hinckley, tells me that he is a true believer in the broad array of those who the Lord has called to lead His Church in these Latter-days.
   I guess my feeling on this issue is that the sub-title of the blog makes it seem more narrow than it really is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I was too harsh in my last comment.  I think Brother Redfels heart is in the right place, and he is trying to promote good, and to lead people to the true doctrines of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ.<br />
   I am just not sure if picking only a few of the Special Witnesses of Christ is the best way to do this.  The fact that Brother Redfells analyzes a book by Spencer W. Kimball, and has elsewhere made posts that follow indepth specific teachings of Boyd K. Packer and Gordon B. Hinckley, tells me that he is a true believer in the broad array of those who the Lord has called to lead His Church in these Latter-days.<br />
   I guess my feeling on this issue is that the sub-title of the blog makes it seem more narrow than it really is.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9929</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9929</guid>
		<description>I have to say I am a little uncomfortable with the general premise of this blog.  I think we should seek to learn the Doctrine of Jesus Christ as taught by his prophets and apostles, and I think the specific citing of some past apostles is too close to creating a division in the truth.
  However, I do support the Miracle of Forgiveness.  We all look back and wish we could have said things differently, but that does not mean that the way they were said was not good.  I also think that even at times President Kimball did not fully recognize to what extent the things he said in the Miracle of Forgiveness were those the holy spirit was moving upon him to write.
   I think that introspection is good, and would rather have missionaries in the MTC who are wondering and contemplating if they have fully reprented than to have missionaries in the field who have grevious and unconfessed sins, some of which they continue to commit.  That was too often the case with missionaries in my mission.
  With the number of complaints I have seen from some quarters about the preaching against pornography in genera conference, I think that there is definantly calls to reprentance going out.  Also, I clearly remember the time on my mission when Elder Pinegar invited the sister missionaries to leave the room, and then he went into a full force denunciation of the elders for moral sins being committed by some.  That was in 2000, so not really long ago.
   Lastly, in response to DB&#039;s comments, from what I have seen it tends to be those who want to remove the designation as sinfulness from homosexuality who object the most loadly and most often to The Miracle of Forgiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say I am a little uncomfortable with the general premise of this blog.  I think we should seek to learn the Doctrine of Jesus Christ as taught by his prophets and apostles, and I think the specific citing of some past apostles is too close to creating a division in the truth.<br />
  However, I do support the Miracle of Forgiveness.  We all look back and wish we could have said things differently, but that does not mean that the way they were said was not good.  I also think that even at times President Kimball did not fully recognize to what extent the things he said in the Miracle of Forgiveness were those the holy spirit was moving upon him to write.<br />
   I think that introspection is good, and would rather have missionaries in the MTC who are wondering and contemplating if they have fully reprented than to have missionaries in the field who have grevious and unconfessed sins, some of which they continue to commit.  That was too often the case with missionaries in my mission.<br />
  With the number of complaints I have seen from some quarters about the preaching against pornography in genera conference, I think that there is definantly calls to reprentance going out.  Also, I clearly remember the time on my mission when Elder Pinegar invited the sister missionaries to leave the room, and then he went into a full force denunciation of the elders for moral sins being committed by some.  That was in 2000, so not really long ago.<br />
   Lastly, in response to DB&#8217;s comments, from what I have seen it tends to be those who want to remove the designation as sinfulness from homosexuality who object the most loadly and most often to The Miracle of Forgiveness.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor</title>
		<link>http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9832</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/#comment-9832</guid>
		<description>Our creating rigid definitions on what is official and what is not only demonstrates close mindedness to God&#039;s delivery of revelation to us, for our benefit. I believe the scriptures use the term &quot;divers&quot; or diverse in describing the operations of the Spirit. If a person closes a door to the spirit when receiving revelation from any of the possible methods that revelation can come to us, then that person is effectively &quot;quenching the spirit&quot; and shouting to God that he will not accept truth.  The light that person had will begin to fade, unless repented of, until there is nothing but darkness and separation from God. If we refuse to accept truth, where ever it is found, then we will not receive personal revelation of greater knowledge; and that is the whole point of being a priesthood holder, the whole point of being a member of the true Church! To get greater and greater knowledge of God and Christ revealed to us personally because that is eternal life! John 17:3. Anything less, is less than what God desires us to receive. Can we cleave to truth and light and not shrink away?

One of those methods of receiving revelation is to read the revelations given to General Authorities and communicated by them by word written or spoken.  If a bishop (Judge of Israel, Shepard of God&#039;s flock) counsels us to read the Miracle of Forgiveness as a part of our repentance process from some sin, then that is as official as it gets. Bishops have done this in the past, are doing this at present and are encouraged to continue recommending MoF by stake and general authorities.  The only unique counsel they give, and they give it consistently, with regard to the MoF is that a person read the last part first (about the atonement) and the first part last (about sins to be repented of). I suppose a person could ignore their bishop and risk arriving at the Judgment Bar unable to explain away why they ignored the righteous counsel of their priesthood leader called and ordained by God, and continued to live a life of sin in whatever degree, instead of submitting to wise counsel and learning how to live righteously during their probation.

Goldarn: Using your definition of &quot;official doctrine&quot; you would be allowed to disregard all the general conference talks ever given since the restoration (excluding the few that actually made it into the Doctrine and Covenants) How many talks do the apostles and prophets need to give on how the true Church of Jesus Christ has, and always will have, an open cannon of scripture. Moses 1: 4 &quot;for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.&quot; And how many times will you sustain the general authorities as &quot;prophets, seers and REVELATORS&quot; before you decided to accept them as such?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our creating rigid definitions on what is official and what is not only demonstrates close mindedness to God&#8217;s delivery of revelation to us, for our benefit. I believe the scriptures use the term &#8220;divers&#8221; or diverse in describing the operations of the Spirit. If a person closes a door to the spirit when receiving revelation from any of the possible methods that revelation can come to us, then that person is effectively &#8220;quenching the spirit&#8221; and shouting to God that he will not accept truth.  The light that person had will begin to fade, unless repented of, until there is nothing but darkness and separation from God. If we refuse to accept truth, where ever it is found, then we will not receive personal revelation of greater knowledge; and that is the whole point of being a priesthood holder, the whole point of being a member of the true Church! To get greater and greater knowledge of God and Christ revealed to us personally because that is eternal life! John 17:3. Anything less, is less than what God desires us to receive. Can we cleave to truth and light and not shrink away?</p>
<p>One of those methods of receiving revelation is to read the revelations given to General Authorities and communicated by them by word written or spoken.  If a bishop (Judge of Israel, Shepard of God&#8217;s flock) counsels us to read the Miracle of Forgiveness as a part of our repentance process from some sin, then that is as official as it gets. Bishops have done this in the past, are doing this at present and are encouraged to continue recommending MoF by stake and general authorities.  The only unique counsel they give, and they give it consistently, with regard to the MoF is that a person read the last part first (about the atonement) and the first part last (about sins to be repented of). I suppose a person could ignore their bishop and risk arriving at the Judgment Bar unable to explain away why they ignored the righteous counsel of their priesthood leader called and ordained by God, and continued to live a life of sin in whatever degree, instead of submitting to wise counsel and learning how to live righteously during their probation.</p>
<p>Goldarn: Using your definition of &#8220;official doctrine&#8221; you would be allowed to disregard all the general conference talks ever given since the restoration (excluding the few that actually made it into the Doctrine and Covenants) How many talks do the apostles and prophets need to give on how the true Church of Jesus Christ has, and always will have, an open cannon of scripture. Moses 1: 4 &#8220;for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.&#8221; And how many times will you sustain the general authorities as &#8220;prophets, seers and REVELATORS&#8221; before you decided to accept them as such?</p>
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