For more than forty-two years, ever since I first met the Mormons, I have heard it taught that the Sons of Perdition can be numbered on the fingers of one hand. Where did this teaching originate? Is it true? This morning, reading the King Follett Discourse again for the first time in many years, I’m not so sure. Joseph Smith taught in this greatest of all his sermons:
All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Perhaps I misunderstand Joseph here. But it seems to me that he is equating “have the heavens opened unto him” with “receive the Holy Ghost.” This understanding is further buttressed by his statement, “This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Many doesn’t sound like the fingers of one hand to me. What am I missing here? Surely more than a handful of priesthood holders have received the revelations of the Holy Ghost and then turned away. Is that not true? Could it be that Joseph Smith simply misspoke himself in this part of the sermon, that he just used imprecise language? Maybe this is the reason that the King Follett Discourse is not included in our canon, do you think? Why isn’t it part of our standard works?
I love this sermon, but it leaves me with a lot of questions.
July 13, 2005 at 9:57 am
Brigham asked how much it took to become a son of perdition and answered with “just as much as it takes to make a God.” They have to sin against ALL of the light.
I understand Joseph to have taught that you had to recieve your calling and election made sure in order to qualify as a son of perdition. This is due to the fact that there is no seal against the unpardonable sin.
July 13, 2005 at 11:54 am
I believe that Jeffrey is correct to point to those who have recieved all the holy ordinances.
July 13, 2005 at 2:20 pm
I was told about 30 years ago that women couldn’t become Sons of Perdition because they don’t hold the Priesthood.
July 13, 2005 at 2:32 pm
Judy Jones, that would be a fallacy as women have equal access to the fullness of the priesthood as do men.
July 18, 2005 at 4:34 pm
Since essentially no one is receiving a “calling and election made sure” in these days - unlike the late 19th century when such ordinances, then known as 2nd Annointings, were common - it goes that essentially no one can become a Son of Predition.
Perhaps it would be possible for an Apostle to become such. If God finds that they have “All of the light” and then knowingly worked against it.
January 30, 2007 at 9:51 am
why do you have to just rip apart the LDS church? you dont see the catholics being ripped apart.
April 25, 2007 at 6:30 pm
I have always been taught that to become a Son of Perdition, one must have a perfect knowledge of Jesus and or the trinity, ( Such as I have a perfect knowledge of my child because I see him face to face and converse with him ) therefore I know without a doubt that he, my son, exsist. Then after obtaining this perfect knowledge of God or Jesus, denie that God or and Jesus exsist.
Also I have been taught that another way of becoming a Son of Perdition is to sin against the Holy Ghost. ( I have been taught that sinning against the Holy Ghost is to shed ” Innocent Blood ” . ) This includes drive by shootings, murder, manslaughter etc.
June 13, 2007 at 6:58 pm
You are correct in your assumption. It gives us a warm and fuzzy feeling to say that no one now days can become a son of perdition or that you can count them on one hand. If you study this topic, which will be difficult as it is rarely spoken of, you will find quotes saying that it is a large misunderstaing in the Church that sons of perdition will be quite few in number but will actually be as “the sands of the sea”. D&C 84:41 states that any man who turns his back on the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood will “not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor the world to come.” Sounds a lot like a son of perdition to me, and how many of us are partakers in that covenant?
Cheryl has been taught incorrectly. Though murder is a grevious sin it does not move one to the son of perdition catagory. Some apostles have compared sinning against the Holy Ghost as murdering the Holy Ghost, some people have confused those statements with murder in general.
Though women do not hold the priesthood they are part of the Relief Society which is a branch of the priesthood and do have access to the fulness of the priesthood and take part in its ordinances, so they are very capable of obtaining the same punishment as any man as J Stapely pointed out
July 8, 2007 at 8:26 am
I heard from Calvin R. Stephens, former manager of Church Curriculum, that what the prophets are saying when they comment “Sons of Perdition” can be counted on one hand was a sarcastic approach in front of a public audience. Just like a little kid who uses one hand to count to 10 or 20 using one hand - it could be any number. . . How high can you count? etc.etc. . . You can’t always take things taught publicly literally when you read them from a book or blog. There is a great deal of human emotion involved in saying a statement. To rely on the message more than the tone of the messanger will get you into trouble. . .
December 13, 2007 at 3:11 pm
The Bible refers to *singular* - Son of Perdition - not sons.
When in doubt, go to God’s Word- The Holy Bible - not the words of modern men.
hth
Bruce
July 17, 2008 at 8:45 am
The moniker “sons” of perdition teaches correctly that women will not have part in this degree of glory (or lack thereof). Boyd K. Packer and other apostles have on rare occasion taught this exact doctrine stating that the statement in scripture that women are saved by childbirth refers directly to being saved from the condition of being a Son of Perdition. Also many apostles have clearly taught that the “rank and file” members of the church/holders of the Priesthood will never be in a position to even sin sufficiently against the Holy Ghost to become a Son of Perdition. Do we believe that God continues to reveal truths to his prophets? I do. The scriptures are gateways to receiving personal revelation. I think that some on this forum had beware of wresting the scriptures or reading with a single possible interpretation of meaning. Apostles often speak from different angles on the same topic so that one can compile what they all have said at different times in order to come to an understanding of the doctrinal truth. Sometimes they appear inconsistent or in opposition to one another when in actuality they are defining the bounds set by the Lord on a particular law. One has to apply to deep pondering of all available teachings and prayer to get at the truth- not sloppy logic.
Bruce - your loyalty to the Bible is an example of limited faith and belief in God. Judas Iscariot is not the only Son of Perdition. Cain is the first, and that from the Bible as well. So you have at least two you must consider even limited to the Bible as the end-all-be-all of God’s communication with mankind.
July 20, 2008 at 9:18 pm
I was Baptized in 1970 while serving in the USCG in Alaska.
Splitting hairs about who gets the axe on this Perdition question is just that!
There are a few unscrupulous individuals that went too far in their Anti-Gospel Rhetoric. One in particular was Ed Decker and his “Saints Alive” pamphlets and film called the “God Makers”. Fawn Brody, Deborah Lakke, Sonja Johnson for her chaining event at the dedication of the Seattle Temple and the ERA.
While working at the Genealogy booth at the Puyallup Fair in Washington State, I was accosted by some cronies for the Saints Alive group, they were summarily marched off the fairgrounds by the security personnel, but I had heard that a couple years earlier, Ed Decker himself from Bellevue, WA at that time, came dressed in the Temple’s ceremonial clothing and paraded up and down in front of the LDS booth passing out his Anti-Mormon literature until he was arrested for illegal trespassing and soliciting without a license there at the fair, and was slapped with a restraining order.
If the press was in on these persons actions and the First Presidency too about the Deckerites, then there might be a few angels taking notes as well. So instead of worrying about which way the Pearly Gates swing, why not let these people pass on into the next state of life, and see if the lights go out forever!
Perdition is a state of mind, and a conscious act of defiance against a higher law….
So lets let’s just let sleeping Endowed Excommunicated unrepentant, Anti-Mormons sleep in their own self made proverbial beds!